Topic: Trees and Terrains

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kaputtnik Topic Opener Joined: 2013-02-18, 20:48 Posts: 2550 OS: Archlinux Version: current master One Elder of Players Location: Germany	Posted at: 2015-08-04, 22:39 Tibor wrote: GunChleoc wrote: We have currently 2 big branches in the works that I am stuck with and that we don't even have merge requests for yet. There are some problems that only SirVer (or somebody who is as good at programming as he is) can solve. So, until SirVer finds the time or somebody new joins the project, we really can't tell when they will be finished. So, basically, it Build19 will come out when it's done, whenever that is I wish it was not too long, I think there has been quite a lot of changes since last release and trunk is working well without big issues. I fully agree, but also i think there some main stoppers for a new release. F.e. the scrollwheel bug is something that should be fixed in a new official release. There is nothing bad as a malfunction in the ui.... Top Quote

GunChleoc Joined: 2013-10-07, 15:56 Posts: 3317 One Elder of Players Location: RenderedRect	Posted at: 2015-08-04, 23:09 kaputtnik wrote: I fully agree, but also i think there some main stoppers for a new release. F.e. the scrollwheel bug is something that should be fixed in a new official release. There is nothing bad as a malfunction in the ui.... Definitely, this is annoying me as well. Busy indexing nil values Top Quote

kaputtnik Topic Opener Joined: 2013-02-18, 20:48 Posts: 2550 OS: Archlinux Version: current master One Elder of Players Location: Germany	Posted at: 2015-08-13, 23:03 king_of_nowhere wrote: from what i've seen, one mistake of how the values were made is that an attempt was made to express the temperature in kelvin. the way the growth is calculated, the gaussian has a width that is proportional to the absolute value of the parameter it uses. so a tree with a pickyness of 0.6 (many palms have that or lower) and an optimal temperature of 300 will grow fairly well from 360 to 240, and that's why palms grow on snow. Should the description of "temperature" be adapted? What is a right description? In all `init.lua` files the description is `-- Temperature are in Kelvin` Top Quote

king_of_nowhere Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35 Posts: 1668 One Elder of Players	Posted at: 2015-08-14, 00:34 kaputtnik wrote: king_of_nowhere wrote: from what i've seen, one mistake of how the values were made is that an attempt was made to express the temperature in kelvin. the way the growth is calculated, the gaussian has a width that is proportional to the absolute value of the parameter it uses. so a tree with a pickyness of 0.6 (many palms have that or lower) and an optimal temperature of 300 will grow fairly well from 360 to 240, and that's why palms grow on snow. Should the description of "temperature" be adapted? What is a right description? In all `init.lua` files the description is ~~~~ -- Temperature are in Kelvin ~~~~ Yeah, good point. I wanted to mention it, but then I forgot. Should be changed in "temperature is in arbitrary units" or something Top Quote

kaputtnik Topic Opener Joined: 2013-02-18, 20:48 Posts: 2550 OS: Archlinux Version: current master One Elder of Players Location: Germany	Posted at: 2015-08-14, 09:50 king_of_nowhere wrote: Yeah, good point. I wanted to mention it, but then I forgot. Should be changed in "temperature is in arbitrary units" or something Hmmm, not really helpful without a hint to human readable degrees. If someone want to put in a new tree or terrain he should be able to use the right values without knowledge of the math behind it. If i look at the values the desert mountain meadows have temperatures 140 and 145, on the hotter one trees will grow better... and desert water is hotter (150) than mountain meadows... I think "something like temperature" is maybe a better description Top Quote

king_of_nowhere Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35 Posts: 1668 One Elder of Players	Posted at: 2015-08-14, 12:24 if necessary, we can specify that desert environments have a temperature around 150, summer and wasteland around 100, and winter about 50. I'm trying to think of a real world equivalent, like the number of days where the temperature exceeds x, oor the plant growing season, or othersuch parameters, but annot think of anything. ultimately, it's just a value that has been set that way to ensure that trees grew as desired, and trying to find a meaning to it may lead to problems, like palms growing on snow.. Top Quote

DragonAtma Joined: 2014-09-14, 01:54 Posts: 351 Tribe Member	Posted at: 2015-08-14, 14:27 I think it's best to go with king_of_nowhere's idea; seasons don't occur in widelands (only exception would be campaigns, and in those it'd be done by outright changing terrains. As for water, water is water; even latitude doesn't matter that much. Thanks to the jet stream, London is known for having an average temperature similar to NY's temperature, yet it's practically as far north as Adak, Alaska! (51°30′N vs 51°53′N). For comparison, New York is 40°40′N, leaving it tied with snowless Naples (40°51′N). So my recommendations: Desert land: 150 Desert water: 130 Greenland land/water: 100 Winter water: 70 Winter land: 50 And if those numbers don't work out, we can adjust them as needed; just remember that water tends to normalize temperatures somewhat. Top Quote

king_of_nowhere Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35 Posts: 1668 One Elder of Players	Posted at: 2015-08-14, 14:51 water reduces the difference between summer and winter temperatures, so it would make some sense to make desert water cooler and winter water hotter. anyway, those values would only influence trees adjacent to water, which are a scant minority of total trees, and the fact that they would be averaged with other values from the land side would make their influence negligible. As for the average water temperature, that's influenced by oceanic currents, so london has a warm climate because the gulf stream carries hot water to high latitudes, while new york is colder than it should because it has a cold current (orth labrador current? not sure) bringing water from the arctic to the temperate regions. but that makes the whole climate hotter or colder, not just a season. Top Quote

kaputtnik Topic Opener Joined: 2013-02-18, 20:48 Posts: 2550 OS: Archlinux Version: current master One Elder of Players Location: Germany	Posted at: 2015-08-14, 17:06 I need a description of the temperature value. Otherwise the branch with new values will not be implemented. So what about `-- Temperature in arbitrary units, where "20" means very cold (something beneath 273 K) and "180" means very hot (something above 310 K)` If "temperature" is a wrong term for this value we have to use another one. Top Quote

einstein13 Joined: 2013-07-29, 00:01 Posts: 1116 One Elder of Players Location: Poland	Posted at: 2015-08-14, 19:38 kaputtnik wrote: If "temperature" is a wrong term for this value we have to use another one. Temperature is the best term and the worst term for this value I know 4 "basic temperature scales": Celsius, Fahrenheit, Kelvin and Réaumur. Wikipedia knows even more. We can make even "Widelands Scale". No problem Also "Temperature" means more than what the thermometer shows (that is why "worst term"), but here we want basic, common sense ("best term") einstein13 calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/ backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/ Top Quote

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