Topic: "Northmen" Tribe Page

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einstein13
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Posted at: 2017-06-30, 15:43

king_of_nowhere wrote:

empire has a weapon made with wood, but it does not affect collectors balancce much; gathering gold is still more efficient by far.

That is a good point face-smile.png But still, there is a technique of winning collectors without a great economy.

Creating a whole soldier witthout an economy, now that's a different question. though I may like the idea of a tribe that does not use metals at all, or maybe just a little gold, but has a different and complex economy otherwise.

Probably that is better point & solution face-smile.png

Level 9 & 10 soldiers calculations

I've picked best level 9: not full attack upgrade

All differences are shown below:

Battles win:

vs. bar_10 emp_10 atl_10 fri_09 fri_10
bar_10 54.8% 52.2% 50.5% 33.8% 16.4%
emp_10 55.4% 53.3% 49.5% 36.9% 36.9%
atl_10 56.7% 56.8% 53.1% 41.7% 41.8%
fri_09 74.7% 70.5% 65.8% 58.8% 35.5%
fri_10 88.7% 70.5% 65.9% 79.3% 59.6%

Attackers health:

vs. bar_10 emp_10 atl_10 fri_09 fri_10
bar_10 25.5% 22.0% 21.2% 10.0% 6.4%
emp_10 22.3% 22.7% 20.5% 12.0% 8.1%
atl_10 24.6% 24.8% 22.6% 14.0% 9.7%
fri_09 25.6% 26.7% 24.2% 11.5% 6.6%
fri_10 41.5% 26.7% 24.3% 20.8% 13.9%

Defenders health:

vs. bar_10 emp_10 atl_10 fri_09 fri_10
bar_10 19.5% 17.7% 19.9% 18.8% 32.7%
emp_10 17.3% 18.7% 20.7% 20.9% 20.9%
atl_10 16.8% 16.8% 18.8% 18.8% 18.8%
fri_09 7.0% 9.1% 10.8% 6.5% 13.1%
fri_10 4.2% 5.9% 7.2% 3.4% 7.8%

For better comparison, I will prepare level9 vs level10 soldiers for each tribe (only 2 x 2 tables)

Edited: 2017-06-30, 15:44

einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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king_of_nowhere
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 Posted at: 2017-06-30, 16:23

einstein13 wrote:

balancing 9/10

I assume that those changes were included ages ago. My project have the newest values that all agreed.

I downloaded the latest build and checked the values, they were not included. I'd include them myself but I have no idea how to change and compile stuff. Shall I reopen the old thread that suggested the changes?

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einstein13
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Posted at: 2017-06-30, 16:25

king_of_nowhere wrote:

Shall I reopen the old thread that suggested the changes?

Yes, please face-smile.png

I guess that there should be an open bug on Launchpad with the changes included.

Edited: 2017-06-30, 16:25

einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-06-30, 16:58

@hessenfarmer: Thank you for testing it! And you played against a frisian AI? That somehow doesn´t work for me, it always crashes the game with "Help, I don´t know what to do with a frisians_drinking_hall" (probably because I didn´t set AI hints yet).

Which buildings exactly would you have expected to be medium-sized? And how would you prefer to have buildings sorted (I agree that current order isn´t that great, but I didn´t find one that feels better).

I just uploaded a new revision with several changes:

  • Charcoal burners now consume only 5 instead of 6 logs, because Coal is rather expensive and Frisians need a lot of it.

  • Changed target quantities for several wares (Bricks to 40).

  • The wooden tower now has a smaller influence radius (-1), the sentinel a smaller one (+1). This is because sentinels have 3 soldiers and wooden towers only 1. I will make some more changes to build costs and influence radius of all military buildings soon, to put them in a better relation.

  • Fixed the very annoying problem that most building´s hotspots were all over the place except where they were expected. Buildings should now be drawn correctly.

  • Set the preciousness of all wares. For example, taverns preferred to use expensive smoked meat/fish rather than cheap fruit. Now, all wares have been assigned a more reasonable preciousness.

Soldier balancing: einstein13´s stats show that apparently, soldiers are much more unbalanced than I thought. There are so many things to consider for balancing… I will try to change my own Strength Calculation Program to make up some more balanced strength settings. Thank you, einstein13, for the time you invest in such calculations!

Ideas for other tribes: WorldSaviour created a new thread for gathering such ideas. I´d like to ask everyone to continue discussions about Amazons etc in that thread, because it´s sometimes not obvious whether a post is about the Frisians or unrelated to them.

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king_of_nowhere
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 Posted at: 2017-06-30, 17:35

ok, i reopened the old thread and opened a bug report.

when will the frisians become available for a windows version?

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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2017-06-30, 17:55

king_of_nowhere wrote:

do-ctatorship... I like the sound of that

Is it possible that I'm not the only one here who has got a high affinity to wordplays? face-smile.png

einstein13 wrote:

king_of_nowhere wrote:

empire has a weapon made with wood, but it does not affect collectors balancce much; gathering gold is still more efficient by far.

That is a good point face-smile.png But still, there is a technique of winning collectors without a great economy.

But: If you want to win a collectors game only with wooden spears, don't you need the greatest marble columns + wood economy ever? face-wink.png

Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-06-30, 19:10

king_of_nowhere wrote:

when will the frisians become available for a windows version?

Since there are no changes to the source code, you can use the frisians by just downloading the files. Follow the link to the launchpad branch, click the most recent revision number, choose "download tarball", unpack the files. Open a command prompt (press Windows-R, type "cmd.exe") and run

C:\Path\To\Widelands.exe --datadir=C:\Path\To\Unpacked\Files\data

I think the option is called "--datadir"; if it doesn´t work, do "C:\Path\To\Widelands.exe --help" to view the correct option.

You can run it like this with any installed widelands version. It will crash after some time with build19, so I recommend a development version (the branch is forked from version 8384).

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2017-06-30, 22:26

Need to test more to make valuable suggestions. Hope I'll find some time over the weekend. I think the changes are targeted in the right direction. Regarding the coal problem it just came to my mind that it would be possible to reduce the amount of logs needed for 1 coal even further by enforcing the coaling oven with clay. At least this would work with the current design of the well's which never run out of water less than 65% ( I just experimented with them for a new scenario). Perhaps 1 clay and 3 log would return 1 coal. Could even be realized that this is only possible after an upgrade of the charcoal kiln. But this is just a thought.
I realized a somewhat weird behaviour in the drawing of the buildings which you say was related to the hot spot. For my personal benefit could you please explain how the hot spots work in drawing the buildings?

Edited: 2017-06-30, 22:26
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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2017-07-01, 11:32

I just pushed a new revision with these changes:

  • The charcoal kiln consumes 2 clay and 5 logs to make 2 coal. I decided against upgrades because it would always be better to enhance the building immediately, which is annoying. Forcing the player to use the unenhanced kiln by having the charcoal burner gain experience would result in only being able to upgrade later in the game, when there usually are lots of logs anyway.

  • The sentinel is more expensive now (4 bricks, 2 logs, 1 reed) and has a conquer radius of 7. The wooden tower cost only 4 logs and 1 reed now and conquers only 5.

  • New soldier stats! The latest warriors have a basic defence of 4, evade 35, life 12250, attack 1200-1400. Increase per level is life 3500, defence 25, attack 1000. According to my program, these are the least unbalanced stats within a reasonable limit (I didn´t playtest yet). I´m wondering what einstein13´s calculator will make of this…

hessenfarmer wrote:

I realized a somewhat weird behaviour in the drawing of the buildings which you say was related to the hot spot. For my personal benefit could you please explain how the hot spots work in drawing the buildings?

The lua files define a hotspot coordinate for each animation of the building. The building is drawn at such a position that the hotspot coordinate appears exactly in the corner where the building has been built. Normally, the hotspot is set at the location of the building´s doorstep. If it is much further right and down, the building will be drawn far in the northwest of its real location. Some buildings (like certain mines) had the same idle/work image but a different hotspot, so they seemed to jump around when starting/ending work.

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WorldSavior
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Posted at: 2017-07-01, 14:43

Nordfriese wrote:

I just pushed a new revision with these changes:

  • New soldier stats! The latest warriors have a basic defence of 4, evade 35, life 12250, attack 1200-1400. Increase per level is life 3500, defence 25, attack 1000. According to my program, these are the least unbalanced stats within a reasonable limit (I didn´t playtest yet). I´m wondering what einstein13´s calculator will make of this…

I calculated that those values are very good for rookies, because the frisian rookies will only be slightly stronger than barbarian ones, so it can be a very good balance.

But I also calculated that a frisian hero will safely kill an atlantean one. With your new values, the frisian heroes will have attack 7200-7400, defence 54% and 19250 livepoints, right?

Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

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