ok, lately there has been consensus over doing this, so I'll just try to go and start some detailed planning

amazons

bronze age tribe, doesn't use iron. soldiers very strong in defence, weaker in offence. require lots of wood. requires little stone. it is strong when there is little metal to be had (of course) and when the terrain is fertile. has troubles when it cannot grow many trees.

EDIT: updated

gardening center terrain swap: for all biomes, mountain 1 and 2 to forested mountain 1, mountain 3 and 4 to forested mountain 2

for greenland:

• barren steppe to steppe
• steppe to mountain meadow
• mountain meadow to meadow 1

wasteland:

• ashes 1 to hard ground 3
• ashes 2 to hard ground 1
• igneous rock to [desert]dry soil

winter:

• tundra taiga to tundra 2
• taiga to tundra taiga
• snow to taiga

desert:

• desert 4 to dry soil
• dry soil to high mountain meadow
• high mountain meadow to mountain meadow
• mountain meadow to steppe

wares

• wood: just your regular trunk

• ironwood: a harder quality of wood, used for advanced buildings and weapons

• rubber: used for some buildings and armors

• balsa: lightweight wood, used for boats, some armor and buildings

• fish: just regular fish

• meat: nothing special here too

• cassava root: grown in farms, equivalent to corn/wheat/grain

• bread: made from cassava root

• stone: it's the same stone of the other tribes, only they use it for tools too

• water: water is water. however, they can also get it from rivers, more easily

• gold dust: other tribes get gold ore, they get gold dust, but it's really the same thing

• charcoal: they don't dig coal in the mines, they only get it from charcoal burners

• gold: gold ingots ready to be worked

• rations: make the mines go

• ropes: without planks and nails, they bind the trunks together to make buildings. used in some buildings.

• liana: they get them from the trees and use them to make ropes.

• chocolate beans: grown on chocolate farms

• chocolate: beverage used to promote soldiers

buildings

small

• woodcutter hut: just your regular woodcuter. can be upgraded to rare trees woodcutter build cost: 4 wood return on dismantle: 2 wood radius: +1 compared to other tribes working cycle: like barbarian woodcutter, but working animation on a tree takes twice as much (stone tools are worse). will ignore rare trees worker: woodcutter (requires axe). the worker gains experience to become a master woodcutter (15 xp needed)

• junglemaster hut: a forester, but more efficient: plants trees already at the second stage of growth (pole) and is a bit faster. build cost: 3 wood 1 rope return on dismantle: 2 wood radius: +1 compared to other tribes working cycle: compared to barbarian ranger, it has half the sleep time (8000 instead of 16000). (won't work twice as fast, as most of the time is spent moving around). plants trees at growth level 2 worker: junglemaster (requires showel)

• liana cutter hut: this guy cuts lianas to be used as ropes and tie buildings. he just get them from trees, nothing fancy: he goes to a tree, he works and gets a liana, without harming the tree. can only get lianas from old trees, no other special requirements: build cost: 5 wood return on dismantle: 3 wood radius: 6 working cycle: 30 seconds idle, walks to a tree, 5 seconds of animation. worker: liana cutter (requires machete)

• stonecutter hut: just a regular stonecutter, but it works more slowly because he lacks iron tools build cost: 4 wood return on dismantle: 2 wood working cycle: same as barbarian stonecutter, but spend twice as much time on animation. worker: stonecutter (requires pick)

• water gatherer hut: equivalent of well, but it requires water nearby build cost: 3 wood, 1 stone, 1 rubber return on dismantle: 2 wood radius: 8 working cycle: goes to a nearby corner adjacent to water and gets a bucketful. carries two buckets, so it makes 2 water with one working cycle. as it spends time moving, it is roughly as efficient as other tribes wells. worker: carrier (no requirements)

• rare trees woodcutter: chops ironwood, balsa, rubber. will chop other trees only if special trees are not available. upgraded from woodcutter upgrade cost: 1 wood, 1 ropes, 1 stone return on dismantle: 3 wood, 1 rope worker: master woodcutter (promoted from woodcutter) for everything else, it works like a woodcutter.

• hunter-gatherer hut: the hunter-gatherer will grab a fish or hunt an animal, at alternate times. it's a hunter and fisher together. same radius of other tribes hunters. build cost: 3 wood, 1 ropes return on dismantle: 1 wood, 1 rope working cycle: like barbarian hunter, but 5 seconds lower sleep time worker: hunter-gatherer (requires spear)

• wilderness keeper tent: the wilderness keeper will release a new animal in the wild or a new fish into water, at alternate times. Will only release a new animal on a node with a mature tree. build cost: 1 wood, 2 ropes return on dismantle: 1 rope working cycle: like barbarian gamekeeper worker: wilderness keeper (no requirements)

• scout hut: normal scout hut. would be nice if it could be coded that the scout every once in a while climbs upon a tree and gains greater visual range in that location. works with rations. build cost: 2 wood, 1 rope, 1 stone return on dismantle: 1 wood 1 stone working cycle: like any scout worker: scout (no requirements)

• patrol post: basic military site build cost: 1 wood 1 stone 1 rope return on dismantle: 1 stone garrison: 2 conquer range: 6 vision range: same as barbarian sentry

• treetop sentry: unique military site that can only be built on top of an existing tree. would require special coding to make it work. if that coding is too complex, the building idea will be scrapped. restrictions on building based on terrain height and composition still applies. build cost: 1 wood 1 rope return on dismantle: 1 rope garrison: 1 conquer range: 5 vision range: 2 more than a barbarian sentry healing: 50

medium

• ropeweaver booth: turns 2 lianas into one rope build cost: 5 wood, 2 stone, 1 rope, 1 rubber return on dismantle: 3 wood, 1 stone working cycle: as empire stonemason worker: liana cutter (requires machete)

• charcoal burner: makes charcoal out of 6 wood build cost: 2 wood, 1 ironwood, 4 stone return on dismantle: 3 stone working cycle: like most charcoal burners worker: charcoal burner (no requirements)

• rare tree plantation: plants balsa trees, rubber trees, and ironwood trees. it works like a forester, except those trees grow equally well in any soil that's conductive to trees at all. such trees are cut by rare trees woodcutters, and woodcutters of other tribes will just get a log out of them. amazonian regular woodcutters won't touch those trees. build cost: 6 wood, 3 ropes, 3 stones return on dismantle: 2 wood 1 rope 2 stone working cycle: like a forester, it plants balsa, rubber and ironwood trees (those start as saplings). It plants one of each as long as the economy is requiring all the wares. it will skip a tree if the economy is not requiring that specific tree. radius: 6 worker: rare tree planter (requires showel)

• food preserver: makes a ration out of cassava bread, meat/fish, and charcoal (I'm thinking some kind of fire-dried food, sort of like pemmican in the preparation) 2 bread, 2 meat/fish, 1 charcoal make 2 rations build cost: 2 wood, 3 stone, 2 rope, 1 rubber return on dismantle: 1 wood 2 stone 1 rope working cycle: like an imperial tavern worker: cook (requires kitchen utensils)

• cassava root cooker: makes cassava bread 1 cassava root, 2 water make 1 bread build cost: 2 wood, 4 stone, 2 rope return on dismantle: 1 wood 2 stone 1 rope working cycle: like a barbarian or imperial bakery worker: cook (requires kitchen utensils)

• stonecarver: carves stone into tools and weapons. Makes tools out of stone, wood and/or ropes. Makes weapons out of ironwood and stone. basically it's both toolsmith and weaponsmith at once. build cost: 2 ironwood 2 balsa 2 rubber 2 stone return on dismantle: 1 ironwood 1 balsa 1 rubber 1 stone working cycle: cycles between weapons and tools. speed like other weapon smiths. worker: stonecarver (requires hammer and chisel)

• dressmaker: makes all kinds of armors from ironwood, rubber, balsa, and gold. build cost: 3 wood, 3 rubber, 3 balsa, 1 rope return on dismantle: 2 wood 1 rubber 1 balsa working cycle: like most armor smiths worker: dressmaker (requires pins)

• furnace: smelts gold dust and charcoal into gold 1 gold dust, 1 charcoal make 1 gold build cost: 2 ironwood, 5 stone return on dismantle: 1 ironwood 3 stone working cycle: like a smelting works, but 10 seconds slower worker: gold smelter (requires stone bowl)

• youth gathering: where new warriors are recruited (it's a barracks with another name) build cost: 3 wood 5 rubber 2 ropes return on dismantle: 2 wood 2 rubber 1 rope working cycle: like barracks worker: trainer

• chocolate brewery (i'm not fond of the name but can't come up with anything better, be free to change it) 1 chocolate beans 2 water make 1 chocolate build cost: 2 wood 2 rubber 1 balsa 1 stone return on dismantle: 2 wood 1 stone working cycle: like an empire brewery worker: cook (requires kitchen utensils)

• warrior's gathering: soldiers learn the attack promotions here build cost: 3 wood 2 ironwood 5 rubber 2 rope 2 stone 2 balsa 1 gold return on dismantle: 1 wood 1 ironwood 3 rubber 1 rope 2 stone 1 balsa working cycle: like barbarian battle arena, but teaches attack instead of evade worker: trainer

• gardening center: terraforms land into more fertile land. with one charcoal and one fish, it turns a triangle into a different, more fertile triangle according to a fixed scheme. this is inspired from the "terra preta". and since amazonians have no use for mountains, let them turn them to forested mountains and use them to grow more trees. does not turn unbuildable land into buildable land. cannot improve land it already improved once. would require extra coding, can be scrapper if too complex. build cost: 4 wood 2 ropes 2 stone return on dismantle: 2 wood 1 rope 1 stone working cycle: the worker moves to a corner, digs, and turns one triangle into a more fertile one. speed similar to a forester. range: 10 worker: junglemaster (requires showel)

• warehouse: just a normal warehouse build cost: 5 wood 3 balsa 1 rubber 3 rope return on dismantle: 3 wood 2 balsa 1 rope

• shipyard makes a boat with 5 wood, 5 balsa, 3 rubber, 3 rope. boats are like big canoas build cost: 2 wood 2 balsa 3 rubber 2 ropes return on dismantle: 1 wood 1 balsa 1 rubber 1 rope working cycle: as a shipyard. worker: shipwright (requires hammer)

• tower: military site. upgrades to observation tower build cost: 2 wood, 2 ironwood, 2 stone, 2 rope return on dismantle: 1 wood, 1 ironwood, 1 stone, 1 rope garrison: 4 conquer range: 8 vision range: 16 healing: 110

• observation tower: military site. upgraded from tower upgrade cost: 1 ironwood 2 balsa 1 rope return on dismantle: 1 wood, 2 ironwood, balsa, 1 stone, 1 rope garrison: 5 conquer range: 8 vision range: 19 healing: 150

• warriors dwelling: military site build cost: 2 ironwood, 3 stone return on dismantle: 1 ironwood 2 stone garrison: 5 conquer range: 8 vision range: 11 healing: 150

large

• tapirs farm: makes tapirs, which amazonians use as secondary carrier 1 cassava root 1 water make 1 tapir build cost: 5 wood 2 rope return on dismantle: 3 wood 1 rope working cycle: like other second carrier breeders worker: tapirs breeder (no requirements)

• port: normal port build cost: 4 wood 3 balsa 3 stone 3 rubber 3 rope 2 gold return on dismantle: 2 wood 2 balsa 1 stone 1 rubber 2 rope 1 gold

• cassava root plantation: farm-like building, produces cassava root build cost: 4 wood 2 ropes 2 stone return on dismantle: 2 wood 1 rope 1 stone working cycle: like imperial or atlantean farms worker: farmer (requires showel)

• cocoa farm: farm-like building, produces cocoa beans build cost: 4 wood 2 stone 2 rubber return on dismantle: 2 wood 1 stone 1 rubber working cycle: like a farm worker: farmer (requires showel)

• training glade: soldiers learn the other promotions here build cost: 5 wood 4 ironwood 4 stone 4 rubber 2 rope 3 gold return on dismantle: 3 wood 2 ironwood 2 stone 2 rubber 1 rope 1 gold working cycle: like other training sites worker: trainer

• fortress: military site. upgrades to fortification build cost: 2 wood 6 ironwood 6 stone 2 rubber return on dismantle: 1 wood 3 ironwood 3 stone 1 rubber garrison: 8 conquer range: 11 vision range: 15 healing: 170

• fortification: military site. upgraded from fortress upgrade cost: 4 ironwood 4 stone 2 rope return on dismantle: 1 wood 5 ironwood 5 stone 1 rubber garrison: 12 conquer range: 12 vision range: 16 healing: 220

mines

• gold digger dwelling: replaces gold mine. you know that method of gold digging where you put the rough material on a slide and pour water over it? that's the one. produces 1 gold ore out of 1 ration and 5 water. manned by a gold digger. build cost: 4 wood, 1 rope return on dismantle: 2 wood radius: 1 working cycle: not sure how to put that in numbers, but something close to barbarian gold mine. worker: gold digger (requires stone bowl)

• stone mine: get stones produces 2 stone out of 1 ration. build cost: 2 wood (it's a hole in the ground, can't be that expensive to build) return on dismantle: 1 wood radius: 1 working cycle: similar to barbarian granite mine. worker: stonecutter (yes, the same that works in quarries)(requires pick)

tools

• showel (1 ironwood): junglemaster, rare trees planter, farmer
• axe (1 wood, 1 stone): woodcutter
• pick (1 wood 1 stone): stonecutter
• machete (1 wood, 1 stone): liana cutter
• spear (1 ironwood): hunter-gatherer
• kitchen utensils (1 wood, 1 stone): cook
• hammer (1 wood, 1 stone): builder, stonecarver, shipwright
• chisel (1 stone): stonecarver
• pins (1 stone): dressmaker
• stone bowl (1 stone): gold digger, gold smelter

soldier stats and levels:

starting stats attack 12-16, healt 130, defence 5, evade 30.

top promotions attack 2 healt 3 defence 2 evade 3

bonus for promotion 8 - 20.25 - 10 - 15

soldier wares:

• spear: costs 1 ironwood. needed to make new soldiers (note: someone would like bows better, but I think it would look stupid to have warriors equipped with bows doing nothing but melee)

• stone-tipped spear: costs 1 ironwood and 1 stone. Needed to train attack from 0 to 1 with 1 meat/fish and 1 chocolate

• hardened spear: costs 2 ironwood and 1 stone. needed to train attack from 1 to 2 with 1 meat/fish and 1 bread and 1 chocolate

• tunic: costs 1 rope and 1 rubber. needed to make new soldiers. Since soldiers would be very cheap, they also cost some food

• light wooden armor: costs 2 balsa and one rope. needed to train healt from 0 to 1 with 1 meat/fish and 1 chocolate

• wooden helmet: costs 1 ironwood and 1 rubber. Needed to train healt from 1 to 2 with 1 bread and 1 chocolate

• warrior's coat: costs 1 ironwood 2 balsa 1 rubber and 1 gold. Needed to train healt from 2 to 3 with 1 meat/fish, 1 bread and 1 chocolate

• sturdy boots: good boots make you faster on your feet. Costs 1 rubber 1 balsa and is needed to train evade from 0 to 1 with 1 meat/fish and 1 chocolate

• swift boots: costs 3 rubber. needed to train evade from 1 to 2 with 1 bread and 1 chocolate

• hero's boots: cost 3 rubber and 1 gold. needed to train evade from 2 to 3 with 2 meat/fish and 2 bread and 2 chocolate

• padded vest: costs 2 rubber 2 ropes. needed to train defence from 0 to 1 with 1 bread and 1 chocolate

• padded protector: costs 2 rubber 2 ropes 1 balsa 1 gold. Needed to train defence from 1 to 2 with 1 meat/fish, 1 bread and 1 chocolate

a basic soldier is made from a spear and tunic and a bread and a meat/fish.

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Lots of good ideas, but I don't like the idea of a tribe which is not using iron at all. This means that current maps where iron is hard&late to get will not be really playable against amazons for other tribes. If I would make a new tribe, I would take care that there will be a better balance, even though this would limit the possibilities

Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

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tuggyne wrote:

king_of_nowhere wrote:

• papaya: grown in farms, equivalent to corn/wheat/grain

I strongly recommend that instead of papaya (which is just another fruit, not a particular staple) we use cassava/yuca root. This is a common staple in the Amazon and even sub-Saharan Africa. Preparation involves growing the root, harvesting it, grating it, leaching the poison out of it, and finally baking it into various rather bland breads. Probably involves three phases and thus three buildings: growing/harvesting, grating/leaching (which takes hours of waiting to finish), baking.

agree. I picked papaya just because it's the only edible vegetable that I know from approximately the right geographical area.

• gold digger dwelling: replaces gold mine. you know that method of gold digging where you put the rough material on a slideand pour water over it? that's the one. produces gold ore out of ration and 5 water. manned by a gold digger.

A sluice box. A little anachronistic, but oh well. It is possible for them to construct if they want.

yeah, my idea is for this people who are lacking any serious metalwork, but they have this skizo-tech to do things anyway. sort of like steampunk technology, but stone age steampunk. stonepunk?

If there's a good way to turn regular tree resources into other tree wares, I think that would be much better, but it might look awfully strange to have what looks like a pine tree suddenly turn into balsa ware when cut down by the right worker.

ok, but balance suggests to avoid having too many buildings needed. especially since this tribe should need lots of space to grow trees, so requiring more buildings would put too big a strain on them.

WorldSavior wrote:

Lots of good ideas, but I don't like the idea of a tribe which is not using iron at all. This means that current maps where iron is hard&late to get will not be really playable against amazons for other tribes. If I would make a new tribe, I would take care that there will be a better balance, even though this would limit the possibilities

can you make an example of one such map? because i can't think of any. and consider that in maps with little fertile soil (like the pass through the mountains, for example) they will be at a severe disadvantage. sure, they can terraform soil into better soil, but it takes them a lot of resources. I do not expect it to be a strategy used by humans playing at high levels, more something done for flavoring and fun

EDIT: regarding the tin oor copper: I just find it too ridiculous that there are iron sources and those guys are getting tin and copper out of them. yeah, i should feel the same for diamonds and marble mined out of granite, but somehow i don't.

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WorldSavior wrote:

Calvisson and Four Mountains, maybe also Pass through the mountains

iron is not that far in those maps. like, one hour of expansion and you can get to iron - though in the case of calvisson it may get bad if you don't know where it is in advance. So I'd call it a moderate advantage and not a game breaking thing.

king_of_nowhere wrote:

• ironwood plantation: vineyard-like building, plants and farms ironwood trees to get ironwood.

• rubber tree plantation: as ironwood plantation, but grows rubber trees

• balsa tree plantation: as ironwood plantation, but produces balsa

What would you think if such a building would be not like a vineyard, but like a forester-hut instead?

If another tribe would harvest such a tree, they could just harvest it as a normal log. Barbarians could harvest an iron wood tree as hardened wood...

I thought about it, and in fact I would like it more that way.. Two arguments held me back. first is, ironwood-rubber-balsa must grow on any terrain, which is difficult since some maps are tundra and some are ash. probably the better solution would be to code them with a pickyness of 0, so they would grow perfectly on every terrain, but then they would grow on barren desert too. Still not the main problem.

the main problem as I see it is that it risks being too random, especially at first. you have your first ironwood tree, you need that promotion, and your woodcutter goes to chop another tree. And again. and again, and you cannot promote your soldiers. or it cuts the tree at the first attempt. and the player has no control whatsoever over that. ok, you can stop all your foresters, but it's a drastic solution. if that probelm can be solved (maybe by giving woodcutters the choice of what to chop) then I would be totally in favor of it

One more question: Have you already thought about how to balance this tribe for wood-gnome?

hmmmm.... don't play it on wood gnome?

Ok, more seriously. getting trees everywhere in your land after 4 hours is not that hard. so the real deciding factor is how big is your land. fast foresters give no benefit here. they can grow a forest faster, they have a bit better chance of growing trees on difficult terrains, but ultimately they cannot plant more trees than they can fit.

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1. Different wood types: I would suggest different type(s) of building(s), like two farms for Atlanteans. We can allow them to build this type on smaller spot (not big one like farm or castle).

2. Weapon type: I don't like spears here. Amazons always used bows. I will try to force bolts here. There is no necessary to prepare special ranged attack. "Ranged attack" can be within range of 0. Only animation will show ranged attack, mechanics will stay the same.

3. Level 10 soldier balance on the way

einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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