Topic: "Northmen" Tribe Page

Nordfriese wrote:

@GunChleoc: I don´t like using textures with blender, I prefer to combine material colours. The only textures I´ll use (if I ever use some) are the ones that are included in lp:widelands-media. Those are fine, I guess?

Yes, those are fine

Busy indexing nil values

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Nordfriese wrote:

Uploaded a bunch of changes in revision 8407.

The reed farm is a very important building and should be built quite early. If a player runs out of reed before he has one, it´s his own fault.

I never got into a deadlock with no bricks and empty coal mines (yet), except in the first full game I played with frisians. And don´t forget that there still is a 5% chance to get coal even if the mine is empty. On all the maps I played so far with Frisians, I could always completely avoid any deadlocks. I didn´t play tests yet on maps with so few rocks that empty rock mines were a real problem, I´ll try that out soon to get a better idea of the probability and results of deadlocks here.

i tried it on crater, simplest map around, and getting enough stones was a real problem. On the other hand, if all building costs in bricks have been reduced considerably, then stones and coal will be less needed, and the problem may have become fixed already. So, let's experiment a bit with the new version before deciding if building materials are ok or not.

Also, I´d like to remark that the Frisians are intended to be an advanced-difficulty tribe, so a higher risk of deadlocks to avoid (or break) isn´t entirely undesired.

ok, fair enough.

I found a minor graphical improvement to be had: soldiers have two levels of both defence and healt, and it shows with two red dots that are placed top right and bottom left of the proper squares. However, since those squares are also place top right and bottom left, there is some overlapping of the red dots on a fully promoted soldier, resulting in less clarity and an unpleasant look. If the red dots were oriented top left and bottom right within their squares, the problem would be fixed entirely. not that it's a serious problem either way.

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At first glance I think hessenfarmers suggestions seem quite logical, it will need play testing of course.

There are a couple of technical points though. A tannery is a place where animal hides are soaked in vats of toxic chemicals to remove the fat and create skins of varying quality, from velum to hard leather. It is confusing to use the term tannery for a place that smokes meat and fish, smokehouse or smoker are the correct terms. The other point is the process actually uses very little wood. A log made from one ttree would probably be enough fuel to smoke several hundred small fish, a few dozen larger fish or pieces of meat. The suggestion of one log for 2 fish or meat is, I think a minimum, this is a game after all and not a simulation of reality. Reducing the number of stored logs would mean the building could be a small one.

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Nordfriese wrote: I apologize for slightly misinterpreting the values before (I confused attacker with defender).

You don't have to apologize for that

king_of_nowhere wrote:

WorldSavior wrote:

or they must become cheaper.

Well, I don't know if it is fair for a tribe if it has compensate quality by quantity...

Why not? zerg rush became a popular expression for exactly that concept. Barbarians already are this at low promotion levels. And I was thinking for amazonians (in case they're ever made) to be like that, weaker (say, 40% odds, nothing too dramatic) but cheaper - or, rather, with more chances at overproducing an opponent in the late game, especially since they would not run out of metals.

Still, frisians do not fit much with "weaker but cheaper", I agree on that. Okay, but barbarians have still the possibility to train their rookies.

I think that Widelands is a little bit different to other strategy games, it gives stronger soldiers these advantages: They cannot be surrounded by enemies who hit them all at the same time, they can retreat easier and they can be healed much faster.

That's why I wonder if it would be fair if a tribe would have much stronger/weaker heroes.

hessenfarmer wrote:

Regarding the deadlocks it is of utmost importance to first build a basic building material supply. Which consists from my experience of (at least) 2 claypit, 2 well, 5 woodcutter, 5-6 forresters, 1 charcoal kiln, 1 brickburner, 1 quarry or 2 stonemines, 2 reed farm. I agree that this is an awful lot of basic buildings needed, but thats the fun.

For me that doesn't sound like more basic buildings than for the empire, but like fewer! And I think that a charcoal kiln is very far from being a basic building.

Nevertheless frisians are the brick and reed tribe. Therefore brick and reed should be the main building materials except where there is a logic for other materials.

I wonder if it makes sense if they use much more reed than the barbarians.

As for the discussions regarding the strength of the soldiers they aren't that overwhelming strong currently. Especially when attacked they are vulnerable cause of their lack of evade. That makes the battles more unforeseeable because the result depends on how often the opponent manages to evade.

No, actually the opposite is the case: It makes battles more foreseeable.

Another topic to be discussed is that the frisians need massive amounts of log. (Ok in my tactics they need even more due to my building material chain depends on charcoal to be independent from mountains)

I think that this is no serious strategy

From my perspective the effectiveness of the tannery could be improved (probably 1 log for smoking 2 fish or 2 meat to make the tribe somewhat easier.

+1, as the atlanteans are doing the same.

Why don't you include the suggested building cost values of king_of_nowhere in your table, for comparison?

king_of_nowhere wrote:

did anyone try to use this tribe competitively, as in, try to get a fully promoted soldier as soon as possible, and then follow with as many as possible?

Maybe I would do this, but installing seems to be complicated.

I would say, when we can do it in two hours, the tribe will be reasonaby balanced. we can expect that we won't play it as well as the others, so if we make it in two hours it probably can be done in less time.

Two hours? Well... Sounds like too much time, to be honest

Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

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WorldSavior wrote:

hessenfarmer wrote:

Regarding the deadlocks it is of utmost importance to first build a basic building material supply. Which consists from my experience of (at least) 2 claypit, 2 well, 5 woodcutter, 5-6 forresters, 1 charcoal kiln, 1 brickburner, 1 quarry or 2 stonemines, 2 reed farm. I agree that this is an awful lot of basic buildings needed, but thats the fun.

For me that doesn't sound like more basic buildings than for the empire, but like fewer! And I think that a charcoal kiln is very far from being a basic building.

Well as Nordfriese explained it is a very important building if you are far from the mountains. By accident I chose only maps so far where this was true. So therefore I would consider the charcoal kiln a basic building. I was not very clear but the above building are only the very basic buildings to just have a continous supply of building material (in case you find enough stone). For mining you need at least a smokery (better2), a fisher or aqua farm better a lot of them), a berry farm and a fruit collector, a tavern, a furnace, a toolsmithy and the mines of course. To train a soldier you need the small armoursmithy, a farm, a reindeer farm, a seamstress and the barracks. So I think they need a lot more buildings than the atlanteans for just beeing able to build buildings.

As for the discussions regarding the strength of the soldiers they aren't that overwhelming strong currently. Especially when attacked they are vulnerable cause of their lack of evade. That makes the battles more unforeseeable because the result depends on how often the opponent manages to evade.

No, actually the opposite is the case: It makes battles more foreseeable.

I don't understand please explain. I made the experience that in almost every specific fighting situation it could happen that even a less trained enemy could kill a better trained frisian if the algorithm let him evade more than 2 or 3 times. from a frisian point of view you can't exactly plan a sweep cause you never know how many of your soldiers will survive.

Another topic to be discussed is that the frisians need massive amounts of log. (Ok in my tactics they need even more due to my building material chain depends on charcoal to be independent from mountains)

I think that this is no serious strategy

why is avoiding deadlock not serious? I think strategy is always depending on the map and there is no general golden recipe to win. That's the fun in King_of_Nowheres maps for example.

Why don't you include the suggested building cost values of king_of_nowhere in your table, for comparison?

because I was to lazy to do so sorry for that

king_of_nowhere wrote:

did anyone try to use this tribe competitively, as in, try to get a fully promoted soldier as soon as possible, and then follow with as many as possible?

Maybe I would do this, but installing seems to be complicated.

Does this mean you haven't played the frisians yet? "not installing" the tribe isn't complicated or hard to do, cause you don't need to install just download the data directory and use it. for this you can use the copy option or the data dir option. in the beginning I used the copy option but then I had no clean install of my version of trunk anymore. Now I'm using the --datadir option. As I am on windows I just copied the shortccut for widelands and added --datadir=D:\development\widelands\frisians\data after the .exe in the properties of the shortcut, whixh is the exact path to the data folder of my frisians branch downloaded with bazaar explorer.

regards hessenfarmer

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