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Topic: new tribe: amazons

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-08-27, 22:08

ok for the fleet due to overwhelming logic of Nordfriese.
will change it accordingly.
BTW: I am nearly there. just need to adjust the main scripts.

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-08-28, 10:27

After some hours of typo and bug hunting I am close to have a playable set. Only a few things might be left before starting playtest.
But there is plenty to do still. Apart from the graphics we need proper starting conditions, and wincondition scripts. Especially collectors needs to be defined. I am experimenting with the balance as well. Current values don't work very well with frisians. But I have ideas.

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king_of_nowhere
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 Posted at: 2019-08-28, 15:00

hessenfarmer wrote:

After some hours of typo and bug hunting I am close to have a playable set. Only a few things might be left before starting playtest.
But there is plenty to do still. Apart from the graphics we need proper starting conditions,

we could try

  • 100 wood (seems a lot, but they don't have planks; every other tribe gets more wood than that when counting the planks)
  • 20 rope
  • 15 liana
  • 10 ironwood
  • 10 rubber
  • 5 balsa
  • 10 meat
  • 10 fish
  • 15 cassava root
  • 5 bread
  • 50 stone
  • 20 water
  • 5 charcoal
  • 5 rations
  • 3 chocolate beans
  • 5 spear (incidentally, need names to distinguish military spear from hunter-gatherer spear)
  • 5 tunic

as for tools and workers,

  • 10 builders
  • 3 hammers
  • 10 woodcutters
  • 5 junglemasters
  • 2 rare wood planters
  • 5 showels
  • 2 stonecutters
  • 4 liana cutters
  • 3 hunter-gatherers
  • 3 cooks
  • 6 farmers
  • 1 stonecarver
  • 1 shipwright
  • 1 dressmaker
  • 1 gold digger
  • 1 gold smelter
  • 3 trainers
  • 45 soldiers

I omitted most tools and workers because for workers that don't require tools there's no need, and for tools that can only be used by one worker, it's indifferent whether to give the tool or the worker.

of course it's all eyeballing and can be adjusted after playing

and wincondition scripts. Especially collectors needs to be defined.

We can wait until some playtesting is done for that. anyway, it's not like other tribes are particularly balanced around collectors.

I am experimenting with the balance as well. Current values don't work very well with frisians. But I have ideas.

what have frisians to do with it?

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-08-28, 15:42

king_of_nowhere wrote:

what have frisians to do with it?

In my eyes we should try to achieve proper military balance between all tribes. We achieved a good set of values for the first 4 tribes including frisians and we should aim at having good values for amazons against all other tribes. with your initial values they are quite easy top balance for L0 vs L0 as they are in fact the same as empire. with a bit more variety but same mean values. However regarding L10 vs L10 they are quite strong against empire. With einsteins values on the other hand they are very weak against frisians. So I am searching for good statistical values against all tribes. What will be definitly true is we need patience in Amazon fights as they are lasting very long

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king_of_nowhere
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 Posted at: 2019-08-28, 16:01

hessenfarmer wrote:

king_of_nowhere wrote:

what have frisians to do with it?

In my eyes we should try to achieve proper military balance between all tribes. We achieved a good set of values for the first 4 tribes including frisians and we should aim at having good values for amazons against all other tribes. with your initial values they are quite easy top balance for L0 vs L0 as they are in fact the same as empire. with a bit more variety but same mean values. However regarding L10 vs L10 they are quite strong against empire. With einsteins values on the other hand they are very weak against frisians. So I am searching for good statistical values against all tribes. What will be definitly true is we need patience in Amazon fights as they are lasting very long

where are the values of amazoninas vs frisians?

the empire is a problem; strange, because they are instead balanced against anyone else. must be one of those "1 more hit/1 less hit needed" cases.

when you point me to the frisian values, I'll look into it

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-08-28, 16:54

Ok, I fiddled around with my excel sheet implementing einsteins Algorithm.
Taking into account a +1 higher increase of evade for barbarians (16 instead of 15 as discussed in another thread) and a modified increase of health of 2025 for amazons leaving all other values as you suggested I get (based on 10000 fights each):

vs. bar_10 emp_10 atl_10 fri_10 amz_10
bar_10 53.5% 55.0% 53.4% 53.0% 48.1%
emp_10 50.3% 53.1% 48.8% 54.4% 48.4%
atl_10 54.2% 57.1% 53.7% 53.5% 54.0%
fri_10 57.5% 55.3% 56.3% 59.9% 53.9%
amz_10 55.4% 55.1% 49.9% 51.6% 51.5%

we can adjust this by carefully change the helth increase (2030 would be ok as well). but I think this would look accceptable for the moment. However amazon fights last minimum 13 rounds average (vs frisians) to 30 rounds average (vs amazons). Legacy we had a max of 11 to 12 for atl vs atl. This is just for info and can be interesting from a tactical point of view.

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king_of_nowhere
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 Posted at: 2019-08-28, 18:05

ok, updated the first post with the new healt value.

If we see that fights are too long, we may put in a third attack promotion and decrease something else, but for now let's keep it that way

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WorldSavior
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Version: Recent tournament version
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Posted at: 2019-08-28, 20:17

@hessenfarmer: What about the defender bonus, is the idea rejected?

king_of_nowhere wrote:

EDIT: oh, you meant they can make foresters on mountains to save space for trees on the plain? I see that. Again I don't think it's a big deal, it's just a single node taken, but I don't much like the visual look of the forester sitting on the barren mountain and planting trees far away. So, it's one more argument for making it buildable only on forested mountains, or not buildable on mountains at all. If we need to balance it, we can do it with slight changes to the lenght of the sleep time anyway. /EDIT

Two nodes.

Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-08-28, 20:29

@WorldSavior: No this isn't rejected. It is just not agreed yet and should influence all values in an equal manner so I did not take this into account for now.

@King_of_nowhere: We do not need to distinguish between spear for hunting and spear for basic soldier. I made them the same as they cost the same and it made sense to me to use same thing for different purpose in a tribe like the amazons.

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hessenfarmer
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Posted at: 2019-08-28, 21:14

ok I am just uploading a first playable version to launchpad. you need to use the data directory of https://code.launchpad.net/~widelands-dev/widelands/amazons with a build of https://code.launchpad.net/~widelands-dev/widelands/amazons-coding-changes
however there is a bug in it that you can't build on a space with a flag already built.

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