Topic: Economic Part versus Heroes

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the-x Topic Opener Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23 Posts: 967 One Elder of Players	Posted at: 2020-04-07, 22:42 WorldSavior wrote: the-x wrote: A hero can be endless winning if he just gets the seconds time to heel Yes, and that's good. In other strategy games this can also be the case. In my opinion its not so good, cause there is no balance anymore. Only very large maps might work, but the medium or the small ones dont work. which is on 2x speed really very short time You exaggerate... Like someone told recently, it can take minutes. well, like king of nowhere said 41 seconds on 2x speed (or 81 sec on 1x) and that for a full hero, means every minute you can attack with full health with is funny but it screws the game in many many cases. not only when i play vs you, but also when newer player plays. / --> i mean, please dont get me wrong, but many games could be so much better cause often it goes like this, someone comes to play most player want to play economy more, there is this one player who destroys very fast everything by his hero, healing and back, and the other player rarely have a chance. Im not for doing to much changes, and i know all the work that has been put in it, to balance lvl 0 soldiers, to balance lvl 9 soldiers and a lot more which i dont need to mention. but we need to make these kind of games playable for most players and situations. also i have learnd hero micro and healing and btw feel really bad about winning an 4v1 game, world plays these games often, but then some players refuse to play, cause they say "it's unfair" -> and this unfairness is exactly the point when they build up there economy wisely, put a lot of effort in it and then one of us comes and attacs by 41 seconds waves, maybe needing 3 and then gg. Edited: 2020-04-07, 23:09 Top Quote

hessenfarmer Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16 Posts: 2749 One Elder of Players Location: Bavaria	Posted at: 2020-04-08, 12:30 In all the games I was playing against WorldSavior and all of his games I watched I was not that impressed about the trick to micromanage one hero, cause in fact it is not that hard (although Pressing the last seconds out can be tricky see the current tournament). I was more impressed how fast and effective he build up a superior economy which allowed him to built and train the second and third hero, while expanding building ports and producing tools. So I believe his abilites in setting up a really strong economy using all his ressources for the right things in the right time is what really impresses me. Top Quote

the-x Topic Opener Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23 Posts: 967 One Elder of Players	Posted at: 2020-04-08, 12:47 Indeed, but we shouldnt talk about what impresses me of the other more than making good rules which lead to a good gaming culture. The main problem still is that we cant keep up multiplayer games because many players online see heroing as far to strong - maybe be can can expand healing time - or make the fights itself slower. right now the game is over 2 minutes when someone attacks, without any strategy changes or tools that might help you. Top Quote

the-x Topic Opener Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23 Posts: 967 One Elder of Players	Posted at: 2020-04-08, 12:53 Another aspect are the nice games i had with Hasi, his economy was growing great, i was trying my new tribe, Frisians it was a fun game and nice economically - until i decided to attack with my hero, sent him back he healed in a few seconds since he was only 2/3 damaged, i attacked again and then after like 50 seconds the whole game was over . To sum up, we had two hours fun, economically balancing, geting ressozurces and everything and only cause of the healing thing i was able to end the game in seconds which felt for Hasi like a destruction and for me also not that fun - maybe we can think of (other) possibilities to expand the game or just make this part playable and fun for all Top Quote

the-x Topic Opener Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23 Posts: 967 One Elder of Players	Posted at: 2020-04-10, 02:18 One important question with I bet the answer is the more complex: "How do I win against a hero" or: how to counter a single / two or three heroes walking to my towers? I bet noone at all can find an answer to this the next days. Edited: 2020-04-10, 18:24 Top Quote

Nordfriese Joined: 2017-01-17, 18:07 Posts: 2080 OS: Debian Testing Version: Latest master One Elder of Players Location: 0x55555d3a34c0	Posted at: 2020-04-11, 18:25 the-x wrote: One important question with I bet the answer is the more complex: "How do I win against a hero" or: how to counter a single / two or three heroes walking to my towers? I bet noone at all can find an answer to this the next days. Strategy one: train heroes yourself Strategy two: Build a barracks, a battle arena, and the infrastructure needed to maintain them. Mass-produce relatively cheap evade-only soldiers. Build many large militarysites close to each other. A large swarm of evade soldiers is strong enough to kill one hero. Top Quote

niektory Joined: 2019-06-03, 20:06 Posts: 206 Widelands-Forum-Junkie Location: Poland	Posted at: 2020-04-11, 18:57 Nordfriese wrote: Strategy two: Build a barracks, a battle arena, and the infrastructure needed to maintain them. Mass-produce relatively cheap evade-only soldiers. Build many large militarysites close to each other. A large swarm of evade soldiers is strong enough to kill one hero. This only works when the hero can't go back to heal. And he usually can. And evade-only soldiers kill slowly so he can heal plenty before having to fight again (unless he's literally alone). Attack is more useful for killing heroes, but of course it's expensive so you might as well make a full hero... Top Quote

king_of_nowhere Joined: 2014-09-15, 18:35 Posts: 1668 One Elder of Players	Posted at: 2020-04-11, 19:23 the-x wrote: One important question with I bet the answer is the more complex: "How do I win against a hero" with two heroes. which you can do, if you have a working economy and you are using it correctly. or: how to counter a single / two or three heroes walking to my towers? you dismantle the tower and fall back. you attack some other building owned by the player, since he has sent his one hero out. you retreat, until you have heroes of your own. you don't have heroes? that's because you failed the whole point of the economy is to make more heroes. the whole game is based on making a better economy so you can have better soldiers. heroes are not too strong. there is no "my economy was stronger but he made an hero so he won, that's unfair". No! if he made and hero and you didn't, then your economy was NOT stronger. If your opponent has heroes and you don't, then the game mechanics should NOT allow you to survive. I mean, I could ask the same question "how do I win against a soldier". well, with other soldiers. which you get by the economy. if you are not making soldiers, you failed your economy. same thing with heroes. Edited: 2020-04-11, 19:24 Top Quote

the-x Topic Opener Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23 Posts: 967 One Elder of Players	Posted at: 2020-04-11, 20:47 king_of_nowhere wrote: the-x wrote: One important question with I bet the answer is the more complex: "How do I win against a hero" with two heroes. yes this is obvious. I mean by which strategy? the whole point of the economy is to make more heroes. the whole game is based on making a better economy so you can have better soldiers. heroes are not too strong. This depends from player to player. For me I think heroes are too strong escpecially with healing in towers. I also like this kind of "economy" you prefer to manually do the prodecure to raise a hero, though its a bit against the founding Idea of Sir Ver or Settler II there is no "my economy was stronger but he made an hero so he won, that's unfair". No! if he made and hero and you didn't, then your economy was NOT stronger. If your opponent has heroes and you don't, then the game mechanics should NOT allow you to survive. To see that statistically and reliable we should add a "Economy" statistics Maybe this is only my personal opinion, but I like an economy that flows, where wares are produced and the aim is it to grow the highest you can do. I mean, I could ask the same question "how do I win against a soldier". well, with other soldiers. Nah, i mean for every stragety your enemy plays there should be a counter. Isnt this even in non computer games like chess like this? Edited: 2020-04-11, 20:49 Top Quote

the-x Topic Opener Joined: 2019-01-19, 13:23 Posts: 967 One Elder of Players	Posted at: 2020-04-11, 20:54 the-x wrote: king_of_nowhere wrote: the-x wrote: One important question with I bet the answer is the more complex: "How do I win against a hero" with two heroes. yes this is obvious. I mean by which strategy? the whole point of the economy is to make more heroes. the whole game is based on making a better economy so you can have better soldiers. heroes are not too strong. This depends from player to player. For me I think heroes are too strong escpecially with healing in towers. I also like this kind of "economy" you prefer to manually do the prodecure to raise a hero, this needs a lot of clicks, and work and time you could spend on thinking or creating strategies - though its a bit against the founding Idea of Sir Ver or Settler II (Aufbaustrategie) where "economy" was defined of the semlting or coal and iron or the expanding production of water and weet to bread. there is no "my economy was stronger but he made an hero so he won, that's unfair". No! if he made and hero and you didn't, then your economy was NOT stronger. If your opponent has heroes and you don't, then the game mechanics should NOT allow you to survive. To see that statistically and reliable we should add a "Economy" statistics Maybe this is only my personal opinion, but I like an economy that flows, where wares are produced and the aim is it to grow the highest you can do. I mean, I could ask the same question "how do I win against a soldier". well, with other soldiers. Nah, i mean for every stragety your enemy plays there should be a counter. Isnt this even in non computer games like chess like this? Top Quote

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