Topic: Sumatrans Tribe

So I uploaded the new tribe to the server now. It is probably the best way to share it, because you can directly see what is done and what is not. I decided to rename the tribe. While trying to design some buildings, I found out that there are almost no examples of African wooden architecture. And I wanted a tribe with wooden architecture. So I turned to Asia again, reworked the tribe and renamed it. Asia is definitely my thing. I saw beautiful examples of wooden architecture of Indonesia. Unfortunately, there was not enough time to create graphics it yet. The graphical side of the tribe is still poor, but should get better just time is needed. I have also prepared a new crocodile but haven't been able to make him move yet. If someone has a good tip for any tutorial on youtube or somewhere, on how to animate animals please let me know. I may try to learn something new, because as for now, I am able to do just painted graphics and it is not ideal. On the other hand, it has its own charm too. Depends on taste probably.

I attach a table with list of buildings, workers and wares of the tribe. You can find the most important parameters there. I hope the table will have good formatting because I use libre office and I changed format from ods to xlsx.

Now to the tribe. It is a little bit harder to play and complex too, but that is what I wanted. I tied to implement some innovations, but was not sure whether it won't cause any problems (for example recruitment of warriors, carriers, hunters and chiefs is done in one production site or the program of hunting camp). I hope it is not an issue, if yes, please let me know.

Problems to be solved and to do tasks in the current version:

1. AI setting: any suggestions on how to make AI perform better are welcome. I especially do not get why the AI doesn't build hunters. I even used "forced_after" hint and nothing. But I haven't been really investigating yet. Will see.

2. Notifications and productivity of some buildings: woodcutters (of amazons too) and hunters execute different tasks, which is causing some unwanted notifications when the building is built. I didn't find any way how to get rid of it. But I hope it is not that bad, you can simply ignore it.

3. Crocodile for other tribes: still didn't decide what should other tribes do with crocodiles. I am considering making some changes in hunting programs of other tribes. But as for now, the other tribes don't care about crocodiles.

4. Amazons gardening center and unused tropical trees (handled in world addon) should be removed. Didn't find any way how to do that. So I simply replaced all.

5. Language and lore: as you probably now my English is not the best. So if there are any English related issues you can let me know.

6. Terraform changes (world addon): I needed to remove terraform from 3 types of terrain and didn't know how to do that. So again I redefined the terrains completely.

As for the changes in world, amazon trees were replaced, 2 palm trees replaced, 2 animals added, terraform redefined, one new tropical tree added and new attribute "sumatran_tree" for Amazons created. More detailed info to the terrains and trees in the second excel attached.

I maybe forgot something but nothing else is coming to my mind now. You can try to play a game and you will see, if there is something else to change.

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Thank you for checking. I unify that in the next update.

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Thank you for correction. Spelling is problem for me. If you see more errors like this please let me know.

mxb2001 wrote:

Does this mean that if one installs this it will make the Amazons play differently? In what way does it affect them?

Yes when you install these addons the tropical trees not only look differently but also grow differently. On almost all terrains grow a little bit less and on winter terrains don't grow at all. So you need terraform in this case. It means that you build few "Thermal Springs" at the beginning of a game and you wait till the terrain is more favourable. The transformation should be quick and cheap. But it slows you down a little bit of course. But for Amazons this should not be a problem. They are always strong. Just for AI it is a problem. So you should not use Amazons as an opponent while playing a winter map.

There is a change related to normal trees too. This should not affect the game though. Amazons recognize two types of normal trees now, because the palm trees are modified for Sumatrans. As for now, it causes some unwanted notifications, when a new woodcutter is built. which should be ignored. Hopefully, I will be able to get rid of these notifications soon.

On Tuesday, I am going to upload update of this addon because there is a wrong path of 2 icons and Editor is not working because of that. If I will find out, how can I get rid of these notifications, I will correct this as well.

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mxb2001 wrote:

So the Amazon's tropical trees no longer grow in the snow? : ) That actually kind of sounds like an improvement.

+1

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Thank you for your long feedback I will go through and try to react to all points mentioned.

hessenfarmer wrote:

• palm trees do only grow well in the summer terrain.

Palm trees will maybe need some change, more testing is needed. But as for my testing till now, they are growing sufficiently. Borrasus and Date Palms were changed to ensure this. Palm trees are made for desert and there should not grow many palm trees on other terrain types (need testing I still did not play other tribes than Amazons and Sumatrans with this world setting). And for this, Sumatrans do have terraform and they can transform all kind (summer, wasteland, winter) of mountains into forestable desert mountains, which are perfect for palm trees. While playing Sumatrans, I didn't have problem with lack of palm trees, never.

• in the lua descriptions sometimes the units are named sumatrans_.... and sometimes sumatran_.... this should be harmonized.

I used sumatran_... everywhere consistently (as an adverb to Sumatra) so sumatran_world and sumatran_tribe everywhere. Just the tribe was called Sumatrans. But then by checking help I realized I am not allowed to use sumatran when I called the tribe Sumatrans. Headquarter, Port, Dismantle Site and Construction Site did not display help and were showing an error trying to find "sumatrans_builder", "sumatrans_carrier" and "sumatrans_ship" and these were nowhere to find. So I had to rename these 3 just to make help work. But in "units" you define which one of your workers is builder, which one is carrier and what object is a ship, still the help is searching for fixed names.

• When I think of Asia I always have rice in my mind (yes I know this might be stereotypic). In Settlers 3 I loved the Asian tribe and I always thought of a Productionsite for widelands which plants rice on coasts of water or even better on swamps. (togehther with the ability to terraform soil to swamp)

My former tribe "Chinese" had rice as the main food source. And when someone creates a new tribe called "Chinese", Vietnamese" or "Japanese", they will probably grow rice. Yes it is stereotypical. It is like every tribe in Europe should grow wheat. As I see it, cassava for Indonesia is something like potato for Europe. Not stereotypical but widely spread and suits perfectly to the tribe as it is designed. And that is also why I called the tribe Sumatrans. But there are no Sumartans really. Not a nation nor ethnic, just locality. This should offer some more space for creativity and still keep it realistic.

I would need to investigate balancing of soldiers

Soldiers are fine. You can find the soldiers balance in attachments of my first post.

and check whether we would need to tweak the Ai code to make this tribe fully working, although the AI does not bad yet on summer terrain.

Yes, the terrain will definitely be an issue for AI. But that is a big disadvantage for AI's anyway when they do not take into account terrain types in their decisions. Every current tribe has foresters and should know where to build them and create a tribe with terraform without AI recognizing terrain types is impossible, impossible.

However I might be more motivated to put effort in it, if the Amazon changes could be pulled out of this tribe.

Ok, while creating this addon my motivation was not to change economy of any tribe. I definitely did not have this ambition. Just wanted a new tribe. But when I do something, I always do it in a way, how it makes sense to me, it always has to give sense to me. And this is not a critique. We all love Amazons and we are happy to have them but honestly, it is a tribe with terraform just on paper. Who ever used gardening center and got some kind of advantage of that? Impossible. And does AI ever build any gardening centers? Never. So as I wrote, it was not my intention to open this topic. The problem is that I actually created a tribe with terraform. Not just on paper but fully incorporated.

If you wan't to have a variety of the hardwood trees, why not just make copies of them that can be used by either tribe or only by sumatrans. for me there is no need to modify the tribes immovables of another tribe.

Again not a critique just my opinion. When I saw for the first time that Amazons do have 12 new tropical trees, 3 sorts in 4 versions each, it terrified me. And I would tell, I was not the only one, who was terrified by that. The game should be complex but should be kept as simple as possible. And I saw this as an opportunity for some optimization. Remove that what is superfluous and make the tribes more integral.

so the tribes competitivness and playability differs from map to map. ... I beleive a succesful tribe should offer equal performant solutions on all our terrains.

Another issue, I can't agree with. I think there should be one world where is the competitiveness of all tribes equal. Summer probably, the most widely used world. With all other worlds the tribes should be easily playable, but the performance may differ. When you have a typically tropical tribe, this tribe should be stronger while playing desert world and should struggle a little bit while playing winter world. Player should choose not only tribe at the beginning of a game but (with a map) world as well. And should know that the choice matters. And you have a big variety of maps already. The only difference between the worlds should not be, that there is just difference in colour of terrain and shape of trees.

As for the balance in strength, I think there is no perfect solution anyway. I for example usually play long games because I like the building part of the game, not much the fighting. And as for longer games Amazons and Frisians are always very strong and Empire is very weak. That is also why I created the "Barbarians-Empire Upgrade". So the balance is always relative, already now.

Back to the Sumatrans, I also think the tribe may still be a little bit too weak. I see meat as bottleneck. So maybe one meat by meals preparation should be enough or crocodile should not give you just skin but meat as well. This tribe will still need better testing in many aspects.

the existing graphics are very promising. I especially like the pagodian style roofs.

Yes for this eastern Asia cultures really nice graphics can be made. Unfortunately, I have no experience in making animated graphics. I still plan to work on this tribe but my work won't probably be so intense that I should be able to finish it any time soon. So if there was an intention to make this tribe official, someone else would probably need to do that. Someone who has more experience with graphics and can do it more professionally. I have no idea how long it could take me, if I should do the graphics.

This post is getting long. Anyway to sum it up, I always wonder how every new version of Widelands is getting better and better, with the seafaring or selection of soldiers before attacking or how you are now able to cut yourself through heavy forest. And maybe this tribe opens some new issues, it was not my intention to open this, but the AI should probably recognize terrain types and as for terraform, Amazons maybe need some changes. But that is how things work, always space for improvements and life is constant change. Sorry if my points of view didn't make you happy.

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