Topic: Remove goods before dismantling

I personally think that simply altering the tooltips to say, "Empty/Dismantle" and, "Empty/Upgrade to..." would suffice for telling people that an action that is not only intuitive, but expected, will happen. A person may not specifically look at the tooltip, but it appears instantly right next to the mouse cursor... It would be hard not to read even in the split second before clicking the button.

Much like tosz, I was very unpleasantly surprised the first time I upgraded or dismantled a building as I was expecting that using the slow method of demolishing a building just to get a few measly pieces of stone or lumber back would also place value on the much more important wares inside the building and save them for me. So, obviously, I would certainly love to see this feature implemented.

As for why this alteration should not be made... Well, the only good reason I can think of (and it may not even apply here because the items inside aren't technically in use and it's not a building that's normally, if ever, dismantled) is Warehouses... It could be a pain to wait for that to be completey emptied first. Probably wouldn't be an issue though cause I don't think those items count as in the building's "inventory" for this purpose.

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I feel that there is a distinction that has to be made for the sake of this discussion. Perhaps I am wrong, but maybe it will prove beneficial. So here it is:

There are two (or: at least two) types of actions connected with playing Widelands (actually, the following holds for any computer game I can think of, but this a WL forum ; )). Namely:

• Actions connected with the interface, such as clicking, scrolling, opening menus.

• Building, sending troops, adjusting supply etc.

The real in-game problems consist in deciding about the latter, while the first group pertains to the interface.

My point here is that extending the dismantle option by adding the "empty the building" element is merely a matter of improving the interface. Almost always you want to empty the building, and at the rare occasions, when you want to avoid worsening the road traffic by adding new goods on the roads, you can just burn the building instead of dismantling (probably there will occurs some exceptions, when this is not a solution, but very few). So why click so much?

I completely disagree with the opinion that this brings us closer to a "win for me" button. The in-game problem is whether you should dismantle the building, burn it, or let it be. Combining dismantling with emptying does not give you any solution to this problem and the game consist in solving problems of this kind (where do I build? when? how should I connect the roads? do I need another farm? etc.). As a player you have to decide yourself, regardless if with one click ore twelve, weather you want to take some actions. Arguably, there is no serious decision making involved when faced with the problem "should I have all these precious resources taken out of the building before dismantling, or lose them without any sense". Analogously, when you issue a command to erect a new building, you don't have to decide whether you want a flag in front of it or not -- it's obvious that all building need the flag, so they can be connected to the roads. But then, you'd say that the lack of this feature has brought us a step towards the "win for me" button, because you have to click less (even though this deciding about flags wouldn't add anything to the gameplay).

Also, an idea of a in-game unit that enhances the interface (by relieving the player from having to click too often) is IMO misguided. This is like adding a worker who makes your mouse cursor scroll faster for, say, wood and fish.

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simplypeachy wrote: I do not feel any UI changes are necessary. If the player demolishes a building then all wares are lost. If the building is dismantled it is emptied of wares instead of losing them. There doesn't need to be the complication of choices or additional UI changes.

I used the word "interface" in a broad sense, meaning the way a player communicates his commands to the game, not the UI (which I presume to be the buttons, windows, and their layout etc.). I am not arguing for any changes in the UI. : )

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> Here is a generic Con: If all is automatized you don't have to do anything press the try-win-button and have to wait till Things work out.

It is completely straightforward to set capacities to zero to have worker unload all wares and only then dismantle. It doesn't involve any thinking, only knowledge that you can do it and willpower to do that many mouseclicks each time. So, proposed shortcut doesn't take anything from the player except boredom and increased finger strain.

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teppo wrote:

True. However, then the player needs to spend time just waiting for building being emptied. This can sometimes take non-neglible amount of time and be boring. On small displays, you cannot just forget the building window into a corner while unloading takes place. Minor issue, but I too think that wares should load out during dismantle without exercises like that.

I too am for unloading before dismantling, but I think I can offer a bit of help here: One of the less advertised features is that you can middle-click on windows in widelands to "minimize" them. That way, I think you could put the building window in a corner, and then reopen it with another middle-click a small time later, and if it's empty by then, dismantle. This way you don't have to keep the main view at the building.

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