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Topic: Reducing soldier strength parameter space (for easier comparison).

Forums » Player Forums » Playing Widelands » Reducing soldier strength parameter space (for easier comparison).
WorldSavior
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Joined: 2016-10-15, 04:10
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Posted at: 2018-09-23, 21:03

hessenfarmer wrote:

Now I reduced frisian health uograde a little further. the results in einsteins program are as follows: (with the uncertainty due to only 10000 fights each)

Battles win:

vs. bar_10 emp_10 atl_10 fri_10
bar_10 54.1% 52.2% 51.1% 52.3%
emp_10 55.4% 53.5% 49.4% 54.2%
atl_10 56.7% 57.4% 53.4% 52.9%
fri_10 58.2% 55.0% 55.9% 58.8%

Attackers health:

vs. bar_10 emp_10 atl_10 fri_10
bar_10 19.6% 19.6% 19.3% 14.7%
emp_10 22.3% 19.6% 17.7% 18.9%
atl_10 24.5% 21.7% 19.7% 21.1%
fri_10 19.4% 21.1% 22.2% 23.5%

Defenders health:

vs. bar_10 emp_10 atl_10 fri_10
bar_10 14.7% 17.7% 19.7% 13.3%
emp_10 15.3% 15.9% 17.7% 15.4%
atl_10 14.8% 14.1% 15.9% 16.3%
fri_10 10.2% 14.0% 16.0% 14.4%

The values are very good now, aren't they? Thanks for your work, hessenfarmer!

Edited: 2018-09-23, 21:05

Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

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hessenfarmer
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Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16
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Posted at: 2018-09-23, 21:03

I would rate this a fair chance, because the barbarian stats against frisians have increased and although the frisians surviving with a higher chance they have very low health left.

the values I used are:
health upgrade reduced from 3250 to 2955 (needed for better chance against barbarians)
defence upgrade increased from 15 to 16
Attack increase from 975 to 1006 (1006) is a corner value in this case, cause 1007 is going to give them 10% against empire)
attack base values spread a bit wider 1300 to 1600

For me this sounds to be a fair deal taking into account that training soldiers is difficult for frisians and they need one gold more than the other tribes for training a level 10 soldier.

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Nordfriese
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Posted at: 2018-09-24, 13:24

fri10 vs fri10 is still a bit high, but that´s not a problem. These values are good imho face-smile.png

attack base values spread a bit wider 1300 to 1600

That also touches the rookies doesn´t it? Did you check that they are they still balanced?

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einstein13
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Joined: 2013-07-29, 00:01
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Posted at: 2018-09-24, 14:04

Wow! You've found the balance here!

@Nordfriese: level0 soldiers should not be "balanced" as level10 soldiers. They should be as powerful as tribe-specific background. For example bar_0 vs atl_0 is most of the times lost. But for sure we should see what appen there face-wink.png .

From my point of view (or rather: memory): we should double check level 9 vs level 10 soldiers. I remember one old discussion where king_of_nowhere found that level 9 soldiers were as powerful as level 10 soldiers (winning over 50%) while they were much cheaper.

einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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hessenfarmer
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Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16
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Posted at: 2018-09-24, 22:08

hi every body here are the values for L09 vs L10 soldiers where frisians, barbarians and empire are lacking the last health level and atlanteans lacking the last defence. (but only done with 1000 fights each instead of 10000)

vs. bar_09 emp_09 atl_09 fri_09 bar_10 emp_10 atl_10 fri_10
bar_09 55.1% 42.2% 38.1% 40.4% 42.9% 35.4% 34.5% 29.8%
emp_09 65.8% 52.6% 47.2% 53.1% 48.4% 43.6% 39.9% 37.4%
atl_09 69.7% 59.2% 53.1% 56.7% 52.1% 50.2% 45.3% 42.0%
fri_09 71.2% 57.4% 54.0% 59.3% 48.0% 40.9% 42.5% 58.9%
bar_10 66.6% 59.7% 55.4% 64.5% 55.2% 52.4% 50.1% 52.6%
emp_10 71.6% 62.0% 56.4% 69.0% 55.8% 53.6% 48.9% 55.1%
atl_10 72.5% 65.9% 60.9% 66.0% 57.1% 57.5% 53.6% 51.9%
fri_10 79.3% 70.2% 67.7% 58.9% 57.2% 55.1% 55.8% 59.3%

here the same with frisians only lacking the last defence (unfortunately the python program crashes if I try to simulate only level 5 attack for frisians)

vs. bar_09 emp_09 atl_09 fri_09 bar_10 emp_10 atl_10 fri_10
bar_09 54.9% 42.9% 39.2% 45.9% 42.3% 35.3% 34.0% 29.4%
emp_09 66.3% 53.9% 48.1% 53.4% 48.7% 44.7% 41.5% 36.8%
atl_09 69.4% 58.3% 53.6% 56.8% 52.4% 50.5% 45.4% 42.5%
fri_09 64.5% 57.6% 54.1% 58.4% 41.4% 40.4% 42.7% 57.1%
bar_10 65.6% 59.2% 56.0% 69.4% 53.7% 52.5% 51.3% 52.5%
emp_10 71.6% 62.1% 56.1% 69.0% 55.8% 53.8% 49.0% 53.9%
atl_10 72.9% 65.8% 61.2% 66.3% 57.0% 57.6% 53.7% 52.2%
fri_10 78.7% 71.2% 66.6% 61.0% 58.3% 54.9% 56.1% 59.1%

and here is L0 vs L0 for completeness (done with 10000 fights each)

vs. bar_00 emp_00 atl_00 fri_00
bar_00 56.9% 41.8% 31.6% 37.9%
emp_00 70.0% 56.1% 42.9% 47.2%
atl_00 78.6% 67.6% 55.7% 54.0%
fri_00 72.9% 63.6% 56.5% 55.2%
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einstein13
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Joined: 2013-07-29, 00:01
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Posted at: 2018-09-25, 09:00

unfortunately the python program crashes if I try to simulate only level 5 attack for frisians

I am a bit surprised, but I will try to fix it (If I will have a chance to reproduce the bug - can you PM send the error response?)

L09 vs L10 soldiers

Seems to be balanced. The differences are about 10-15%, so they are significant.

L0 vs L0

I can see that the atl_00 are a bit stronger than fri_00, but when you fight fri_00 and atl_00 directly, it is opposite (atl_00 are weaker). Surprising, but possible face-smile.png . I think that Frisians are now balanced from my point of view.

The last question (noob one?): what promotions for frisians are metal-free? How many of them? Barbarians, Atlanteans and Empire have 2 evade points each, only for food. I consider them as "early strong soldiers". They are stronger than any level0 soldier.

einstein13
calculations & maps packages: http://wuatek.no-ip.org/~rak/widelands/
backup website files: http://kartezjusz.ddns.net/upload/widelands/

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hessenfarmer
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Joined: 2014-12-11, 23:16
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Posted at: 2018-09-25, 13:36

Frisians have no metal free promotion.

Unfortunately there was no error message visible. It just crashed and closed the python window. I can send you my py files for debug this evening

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