Topic: Amazons balancing

@Nordfriese:

Re Soldier strengths

ama7 beating fri10 should be a rare exception (94% chance for fri10 in the simulator). Or by manual calculation: fri10 attack: 7340 to 7640, health*defense: 28375 vs. ama7 attack: 2800 to 3200, h*d: 20059. Hits required to defeat enemy: fri10: 3, ama7: 9 to 11 (10.13). With the much better evade of 60% ama7 vs 35% fri factored in, it becomes 6.7 strikes on average vs. 14.62.

In any case, Frisian soldiers are the strongest both among the level 0 soldiers and the max level soldiers, but only with very small margins. This part (not considering costs) seems pretty well balanced, except maybe Barbarians needing a little boost.

Re Rare tree kiln

OK, my idea for explanation/lore text is: Ironwood burns at very high temperature, turning rubber into charcoal, but is hard to ignite, so balsa is the starter, and of course, arranging and lighting the stack is an art in itself that requires the skill of a charcoal master.

But obviously, it's mostly about requiring all rare trees.

edit: If you like, I may throw in one granite (the fire is so hot that even the kiln needs regular repairs) to make it more comparable to Frisians and maybe even increase the time a little. The demand for granite should be increased too anyway. I've just realised that they only need 2 for a fully trained warrior.

@the-x:

I expected that you wouldn't like this, because you like to avoid charcoal burners and food preservers. But you can see that since you have demonstrated the strength of the Amazons in last year's tournament, you started a trend of most players using them almost exclusively by now, if you discount for old habits of using old strongest tribe of Atlanteans (and other player preferences not based on pure strength) and quick games where Empire still has some advantage.

So please, just accept that it will be a little harder.

Some afterthought to my afterthought in the PR description: I'm now more confident about requiring more bread and less fish/meat, also to increase cost, because unlike Empire, fish always remains cheap for Amazons. My only remaining reservation is that maybe this way it will become too annoying to build all those cassava farms.

But obviously more detailed calculation is needed to better compare required economy sizes between tribes. @gpalinos's work on performance calculations will be essential for this though.

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the-x wrote:

Making Frisians better is very good in balancing -> the hardest problem they have that without gold they are heavily disadantaged, i would suggest lowering the needed gold for Training.

Atm Fri can only reach lvl 1 (of 6) attack -> moreover they need more gold than they have for trainingscamp, arena and harbor expeditions. There many problems appear with gold

The problem is that it's hard to do with their current system, but that system has very nice internal logic so it should be kept. The only item where gold could be spared is the broad sword, but the main problem with that is not as much gold as that it requires an advanced production building.

edit: After some more thinking and reviewing my calculations, I now think it makes sense to remove the gold from the broad sword. So the broad sword would use the same materials as the long sword, only require the advanced smithy. This way there would be no more mixed scrap metal, and total gold requirement would be simply 4. Iron is still much more than other tribes while coal is the same without recycling, so recycling is still needed and trades in some coal for iron.

Also honey bread and mead make higher level training expensive enough, so Frisians still wouldn't be easy.

But let's concentrate on Amazons in this thread.

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The chance of a level7-amazon to defeat a level10-Frisian is like 25% which isn't very good. If the level 7 means that the amazon isn't fully evade-trained, the chances are below 5%.

Wanted to save the world, then I got widetracked

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tothxa wrote:

But now that you mention that the final evade level of Amazons is that strong, that justifies my changes in the PR that make one gold required already for evade 2, and increases gold to 2 for evade 3.

I believe the advantage was that you could train to l7 without a third of the economy, and especially the expensive part of it. making training of the upper levels more expensive might overdo if the lower levels are more expensive.

Using rations for training might help here as they require coal.
However we might consider having a new ware only to be obtained from stone mines as a second or as a byproduct, named flintstone and use this for making spearheads. maybe we might require a flint for something else (to ignite a fire).
It might even be ok to have some flint from a quarry but in a ratio comparable to empire marble.
I agree there is currently an advantage but not that big that it might be easy to overdo the correction.

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+1 for a different stone type from mines.

However, speaking as the Low German translator here, please can we come up with a different name than Flint? This will cause endless confusion in translating because the Low German word for "granite" is – "Flint". It's a generic term for several types of rock, and there are no separate words to differentiate between Granite and "real" Flint.

How about using quartz like Atlanteans (I assume even Amazon miners should be able to mine it) and requiring it for some of the dresses instead of ironwood, plus for some advanced buildings?

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